Too Small to Sell? The Strategy Renovus Uses to Turn Micro-Caps into Market Leaders

Bruce EckfeldtWelcome, everyone. This is From Angel to Exit. I'm Bruce Eckfeldt, I'm your host. Our guest today is Lee Minkoff. He is managing director at Renovus Capital Partners, a private equity firm. We're going to talk to him about the world of M&A, what he's seeing in the market right now, and get his take. I think this is going to be a fun one, because we talk to a lot of founders who have exited. We get to talk about the other side a little bit: the folks that do the acquiring, that do the buying, and get their view on what's working and what's not.

And his experience of working with lots of sellers: some of the things that go well, things that don't go well, things that can go better. So, excited for the conversation. With all that, Lee, welcome to the program.

Lee MinkoffHey, Bruce, thanks for having me. Pumped for today.

Bruce EckfeldtIt's a pleasure. I know we've talked a lot over the years, so it's fun to get you on the program and actually get into this a little bit. Before we get into what you're doing today, I would love to get a little background on you personally. How did you get into this space? What was your professional background? Give us the story.

Lee MinkoffSo I got into private equity in 2016. I was in investment banking before that. Stepping all the way back, I'm a Philly guy. I'm sitting in Wayne, Pennsylvania, right now, outside of Philly. I was born outside of Philadelphia. Stereotypical Philadelphia, went to Penn State University. After Penn State, I went to New York and worked in investment banking at UBS. Before UBS, I was in asset management at JP Morgan. Coming out of banking, I recruited for private equity and worked at a firm called Lovell Minnick Partners. It's headquartered in Philadelphia, with offices in New York and LA.

I moved over to Renovus Capital four years ago. It's a lower middle market private equity firm, and I joined to launch our professional services vertical, which is one of our four verticals. We invest in what we call the knowledge and talent industries. It's all human capital businesses. We've got education, healthcare, IT, and then I lead our professional services vertical. So I'm responsible for deploying 20 to 25% of the capital of each fund: originate, deploy, execute transactions, grow those companies, and then exit those companies.

Bruce EckfeldtI'm curious, because we use the term private equity a lot and in different ways. Can you give us a sense of how you organize or think about the private equity space, and how you and the firm fit into that?

Lee MinkoffGreat question. From a strategy perspective, we are buyout investors, leveraged buyout guys. We're buying control of companies, generally buying from founders. In 85% of our transactions, we're buying from founders, families, owner entrepreneurs. We're the first institutional capital in. And the use of proceeds is secondary. We're buying out their ownership and ideally taking a majority position in the company. Part of the purchase price comes from our funds, our committed equity capital, and we also use third-party leverage as part of the financing.

So the strategy is buyout. Then, where we play in the market: some firms say they're lower middle market. We say we are lower market. True lower market, micro cap investors.

Bruce EckfeldtAnd what does that mean in terms of revenue?

Lee MinkoffSub $10 million of EBITDA, I would say. But really mid single digits. Our average EBITDA at entry is around $6 million, and we'll do deals as small as $2 or $3 million of EBITDA for the initial platform. I say we don't invest in platforms, we invest in theses. We can talk more about that. But we'll start pretty small.

If you look up Renovus, we're highly ranked. We're actually the number one ranked small cap private equity fund by HEC Paris and Dow Jones. But we really think of ourselves as lower market investors, buying founder-owned companies in a buyout strategy, scaling those businesses, and creating premium platforms, either for larger private equity firms or as add-ons for strategics or private equity-backed strategics.

Bruce EckfeldtI know a lot of firms that have deal minimums and want bigger companies. Why focus on this lower market, and what do you do to be able to run those transactions effectively? A lot of times the deal cost is tough at these lower levels. How do you manage that?

Lee MinkoffIt's intentional. We think the most opportunity in private markets is in the lower market. I think the greatest ability to add value and drive alpha in these companies is at the smaller end of the market. If you're an institutional allocator, I think everyone has pretty much decided they want to invest in private equity. Then they decide where they want to be within the various buckets of private equity. They have an allocation to buyout.

From there, if you've made the decision to allocate to private equity and buyout, I think the greatest market for alpha is here: the number of investable opportunities, valuations, the maturity level of these companies, and the ability to create value, grow revenue and earnings, acquire additional companies, and pull all of your value creation levers. The game we are playing is to win in the lower market and scale up these companies so they can be premium platforms for middle market, upper middle market, even large cap private equity firms or strategics.

Bruce EckfeldtWhat are your deal qualifications? What are you actually looking for in terms of situation, the structure of the company, financial performance? What drives interesting deals for you?

Lee MinkoffWe call it the Renovus deal. There are characteristics of a Renovus deal, and we talk with our team, the analysts and associates and people coming up in the firm, about trying to understand what a Renovus deal is. The company is operating in one of our core verticals. The model of the firm is knowledge and talent. Those are companies where the enterprise value is driven by the intellectual capital of a highly educated workforce: education, healthcare, IT, and professional services.

Each vertical has its own sub-theses. For example, in my sector, we like legal, we like accounting, we like wealth management. Those are areas where we've gotten really smart, and we're investing in a thesis where we pick a tailwind to invest behind. Then we find companies. Ideally they're founder-owned. They have less than $10 million of EBITDA at entry, at least for the first deal. They are growing. They're not flatlining or declining businesses. I say if you're declining or flat, you're basically worth nothing. So these are growing companies.

But there is some sort of hair on the business. The market has some complexities or potentially regulatory headwinds that need to be navigated. There's a lot of customer concentration. Maybe there's founder, salesperson, or delivery risk. There's some sort of hair. I like what our founder, Jesse, says: we buy B companies and turn them into A companies. These are good, solid companies, but they haven't been totally optimized yet.

We're able to come in and use our expertise and know-how, our operating partners and portfolio resources, and we can see the transformation levers. So when we buy these businesses, we know that we're in the money day one. We know exactly what we need to do to make these companies not only bigger, but to actually sell at a higher valuation multiple than we paid. We have our playbook, we call it the RCP playbook, and we apply that to a Renovus deal, and we know what we're doing.

So that situation, that dynamic, describes a Renovus deal. And then from that initial platform, which is the first deal of the thesis, we're going to do ideally many add-ons and many more Renovus deals within that thesis to create a premium platform company.

Bruce EckfeldtGot it. So you have two types of deals: the original thesis deal that sets you up, and then you go out and find things to plug into that, which create the scale and volume.

Lee MinkoffExactly. What's interesting with us is that for four of my five current platforms, we have done an add-on that is bigger than the initial platform. That's why I don't like to use the word platform.

Bruce EckfeldtBigger than the platform at the time of the acquisition?

Lee MinkoffWe have done a subsequent acquisition that was bigger than the first acquisition. If I think about a company called Harbor, we did 10 acquisitions, and numbers three and eight were the largest. With F2, we found an add-on the day we closed the initial platform that was bigger than the platform company we first had under LOI. With another, our fifth deal was the largest from an EBITDA perspective of the five we've done so far, including the sixth that will close later this week. In the three-fer we were talking about, where we're combining three companies at once, the third one, which is closing and hasn't closed yet, is the largest.

So oftentimes we've got this thesis, we've gotten into a small company, we get our capital in, and we're learning about the business as we continue to run it. We say you can't totally know a company. You can't diligence everything about a company. You've got to be in the company to know everything. So it's helpful to get in, learn a lot as you're operating and running the business, and then do subsequent acquisitions that are larger. We can put more equity to work. We've got more purchasing power with our debt capacity. It's a strategy we've used successfully.

Bruce EckfeldtHow do you source your deals? Where are you finding these companies? How do you do your outreach? What's the pitch? Are these proprietary, or are you going out to companies that have put themselves on the market?

Lee MinkoffIt's a mix. Certainly we go through the investment banker and broker channels. We have a three-person business development team whose entire job is originating opportunities for us. We look at over a thousand deals a year at Renovus. I think it's a differentiator for private equity firms in general to have a devoted sourcing arm.

What further helps our sourcing is the fact that we go to market in these four verticals. I'm tasked with sourcing deals. At this point, it's natural. I wouldn't call it sourcing, it's just networking. But because I'm a professional services-focused investor, all the professional services bankers are covering me, and I'm staying in touch with them, and vice versa. They're staying on top of my portfolio companies and where I'm spending time in the market. So there's a good amount of flow from the investment banker channels.

That said, I think we are executing on more proprietary opportunities than the average multibillion-dollar private equity firm. Again, it's a benefit of being very focused in our end markets and desiring to do deals at the lower end.

Bruce EckfeldtWhat does the process look like for you? Where do you start? What do you want to know first? How do you evaluate an opportunity, and what are your gates around that?

Lee MinkoffFirst, it starts with a thematic campaign. I joke that I'm not smart enough to meet a founder or get a CIM from an investment banker and decide that this is an end market or a business model I like and want to use my firm's time and capital to vet. We've got these very high-level themes driving where we're spending time. We've obviously got our existing portfolio of companies, but every year we're doing business planning, and we're calling our shot or writing our story and saying we're going to find a platform or execute a thesis in this end market, which will be a new thesis for us.

There's a calling effort from our team, the professional services team, the business development team. Sometimes we'll use buy-side brokers as well. We're canvassing the market and finding hundreds of opportunities. It's a numbers game. You're trying to meet lots of founders, lots of business owners. What's nice about targeting a certain market is that you've already done the easy job. We've already identified that we like this end market.

I think end markets drive a ton of organic growth in companies. If you're in a good end market, you're going to get some level of growth. That's your beta. Then it's: are you a good company? Do you have a good value prop? Is your team good? That's your alpha. And then the hard part is the people. All businesses are people. Do we have alignment with the founder? Do we have alignment with the CEO? Do we need to make changes? Are the owners okay with those changes? Can we work together? Are we, as Renovus, the right sponsor for them? So it's all about fit. I think it takes a lot of time investment, and I think it's good to be in person.

Bruce EckfeldtI'm always curious: what would you hear from a founder that tells you, "Yeah, we might have a fit here"?

Lee MinkoffIt's a great question, because if a founder is saying there's a great fit between us, I almost feel like that's not natural in a way. I feel like there is an organic meeting of the minds, getting along. Do you enjoy spending time with this person, whether it's the founder or the CEO? Do you want to grab a beer with them? Do you want to play a round of golf with them? Do you talk about things besides the deal? Can you find similarities or differences in life that are engaging and interesting to talk about, where it's not just about how we hit our return targets and revenue and EBITDA this quarter?

Bruce EckfeldtYeah, well, it's not fun.

Lee MinkoffThat kind of sucks if that's the entire relationship. So I think it's understanding that you're going to have lots of conversations that are good relationships to maintain. You can't go in thinking, "I'm going to buy this company." That doesn't work. Founders don't want that either, I don't think. You know all about this. You've written about it. This is such a significant life experience for these founders.

In some ways, private equity is a commoditized product. We sell money. It's the greatest commodity out there. What's not commoditized is the value creation and what we do with companies after we write the initial check. But at the outset, it's a bit commoditized. It's competitive. You've had other guests come on and say it's a crowded market. There are lots of private equity firms. There's a seemingly infinite supply of private capital and a finite supply of high-quality private companies.

So while maybe the market's turned a little bit in buyers' favor, net, I still think it's a seller's market. I think you have to differentiate as a private equity firm by being a real, genuine person and not trying to be something you're not with these founders, who are true, raw, genuine people.

Bruce EckfeldtIt's a strange and sometimes awkward process, because you go through the transactional part of it, which is: how do I get the best dollar, how do I get the best terms? You're going to press each other. It's very much a win-lose dynamic in the beginning, but then you end up doing a deal and now you're business partners. I've seen a lot of transactions where it takes a couple of months to recover from a bloody negotiation process before they can actually start working together.

So I really appreciate this whole idea of building a relationship, because I'm going to be in the trenches with these people for a while. This is not one and done. Then we've got to work together. I'm curious, when you're talking to these folks, what do you find is interesting about you to them? How do you pitch yourself? How do you differentiate yourselves, given that the capital is a bit of a commodity and there's a lot of private equity out there? Why do the companies that do a deal with you do the deal with you, from your point of view?

Lee MinkoffIt's a good question. There are a lot of talented people in private equity, and it goes back to the time investment. I talk about how challenging it is to be sitting on different sides of the table with someone, and then the day you sign or close the deal, you're sitting on the same side of the table. I would say we will not do deals where we can't be sitting on the same side of the table on day one. Life is too short. It's not because the founder is a bad person or I'm a bad person. It wasn't meant to be. And I trust that things happen for a reason. It's a hard thing to find. It's a needle in the haystack, that right opportunity.

How we differentiate: we have a style. Renovus is a scrappy, young, aggressive private equity firm. What's nice is we're investing out of our fourth fund. It's an $875 million fund. It is a stable, well-capitalized firm. But in some ways, we're still on that really aggressive growth trajectory. We feel like we're in the early innings of our own growth. The founders are young, the team is young, and we're hungry. It's an aggressive growth mentality, and there's a lot of work to do in these companies.

We talk about how, in some ways, we're playing the easy game in the area of the market where we play. We think the game we're playing at the lower end of the market is actually better than the large caps'. They're playing a different game. They're deploying billions of dollars. They're trying to make maybe 2x returns. We're writing $30, $40, $50 million checks. We're trying to make three, four, five, six x type returns. So it's a different game.

And not all companies are ready for that sort of approach. As a private equity firm, I would say we're operationally hands-off. We have operating partners that are helpful. We have a portfolio resources group that will drop in on certain work streams. But I would say we are strategically hands-on: positioning, talent, acquisitions, new markets. Operationally hands-off, strategically hands-on, so we probably end up somewhere in the middle of the spectrum of private equity approaches.

But that strategic focus, and how much we're trying to do to grow the business, is a lot of work for our executives. They're also in a people business, so their time is needed to grow the business. This is not a software product or widget makers that just keep operating on machinery. There are no hard assets in these companies. We're buying businesses where there are customer contracts, IP, and people. So working with Renovus adds to their day job, but we think that if they buy into what we're doing, and cultures align, styles and personalities align, we can create a lot of value together. It's economically fulfilling, but it's also personally and professionally fulfilling.

Bruce EckfeldtIt's almost like you've got a little bit of venture flair on the private equity side. You're going a little early. You want a little more return. You're calculating a little more risk versus the big private equity firms, where every deal has to perform, but they're lower returns. They're not trying to get the three, four, five x. They're looking for 2x. So I get the feel that you're a little more entrepreneurial, a little more venture focused.

Lee MinkoffI like the venture flair, because these companies are the farthest thing from venture. We're generally buying very boring companies, but we're looking to provide this venture-like flair, which I'll take from you. A transformation journey. We're not buying companies to make a 2 or 2.5x return. That's not what we're focused on doing, and that's not what we've told our investors. Fortunately, we've delivered for them, and that's what we're looking to continue to do. That's why, even as our fund size has increased, we're still trying to play in this lower end of the market.

Bruce EckfeldtGiven that you're dealing with companies that are very talent and people focused, that don't have ARR or manufacturing contracts and things like that, how do you do valuations? What are the levers for you? What are you looking for to decide where the risk is and where the opportunity is? What's a good talent-based company for you?

Lee MinkoffIn the majority of our companies, the majority of the revenue is project based. That is a different model than buying a business with recurring revenues, or even volume-based revenues that are really predictable. A couple of elements. I'll go back to identifying the end market. We're looking at end markets where we are highly, highly confident of the TAM, total addressable market, or serviceable addressable market growth rates. That's our beta. If we feel like we've got a good company, it's going to meet or exceed the growth of the underlying market, and we're baking that into our models. We're doing market studies in advance of seeing a CIM or getting a proprietary opportunity. So that's our underlying growth rate.

Then it's: what's our ability to exceed that market growth and drive alpha, through same-store sales, keeping doing what we're doing, and then adding new offerings, whether it's new end markets, new service offerings, or new geos. And then what can we do to double or triple that organic growth through acquisitions and acqui-hires? With a lot of our people businesses, we're not always doing acquisitions. Sometimes they're acqui-hires.

Then we're looking at a variety of things. What's our capacity, the utilization of the team? What are the bill rates? What's our leverage model? What are bookings per salesperson? We've got proprietary metrics from the 40-plus platform companies we've owned and hundreds of add-ons. We look at value per head, value per delivery head. People probably don't look at that in companies that aren't knowledge and talent based. So we've got other professional and people services company valuation metrics that we look at, compared to private comps.

Bruce EckfeldtIt definitely seems like the benefit of having this focus is that it gives you the ability to develop insights and tools that allow you to analyze and value these companies in a more nuanced way. Once you have an initial thesis company on board, how do you map out the future add-ons? Do you have a five-year plan with exactly what you're going to add each year? Or is it more opportunistic? How does that play out once you've got a platform you're building?

Lee MinkoffWe're fans of the Amazon strategy, where they'll write the press release for a new product before they launch it. In some ways, we'll write the teaser or the executive summary of our five-year CIM, our exit materials, before we buy the company. So we've decided what we want to look like, our future vision. We share that with our management team, and we align on a plan to execute that vision.

There's generally a three to five year business plan. Then we have more tactical annual plans: here's our budget, here are our CEO objectives. We cascade that down through the company, where there are typically CEO-level and company-level OKRs that we employ. That's how we get to our outcomes. There's always a mix of organic growth and acquisition-based growth. The plan is wrong. It's impossible to get right, so you have to recalibrate every year. That's what we're here for. That's what makes business fun.

But we are generally trying to align on a plan, knowing that things won't go according to plan and we'll have to recalibrate a bit. We think that approach makes a lot of sense. We try to get really aligned out of the gates and be radically transparent with the operators and the founders and the sellers about what we want to build, why we think this is going to be valuable, why we think this is going to make money on their rollover and money on their incentive equity, and why it's good for the clients, the employees, and us.

So I would say it's being radically transparent out of the gates and being really thoughtful about what we want to build. Not going into a new company and saying, "We're just going to keep riding the work that they've done in the past." We're looking to transform these companies.

Bruce EckfeldtFor the founders out there who are going to need to sell at some point, or exit somehow, and are thinking about exit strategies, what would you advise them? I always talk about valuation and buyability: the things that really move the lever in terms of value, and then the things that make a company viable to buy, what's going to make a transaction easier when it comes to the mechanics of selling.

Lee MinkoffFirst, on value. It is obviously incredibly important to this conversation. If I'm speaking to a founder, we get it. I need to get it, they need to get it, that money is important, and money should be in the top three to five things. For some people, maybe it's the number one priority in a transaction. For other people, it's not, and it shouldn't be. But I think it should be a top priority, and I think to be competitive in this market, you need to be in the upper quartile or so of bidders in deals, assuming it's not a proprietary situation.

After that, it comes back to the fit we talked about earlier. How much does the sponsor understand the market and understand your business? Do you feel comfortable letting this private equity firm own the company you built? Selling your company, depending on how many kids someone has, could be a top five, top 10 life event. We have to treat it with a lot of sensitivity and tact, not just in the initial acquisition, but also afterwards, in how we act as business owners.

So I think going into a sale process, sketch out the things you really care about. Sketch it out before it gets emotional and intense, because that is what happens. No matter what, at the end of every deal, there's always something. Every deal always has something. So getting it down when you're in a cool, steady state, writing it down and not losing it, and going back to that file throughout the process, definitely towards the end, and asking, "Am I really meeting my objectives? Am I holding myself accountable for what I really wanted going in?" I would say that's really important.

Bruce EckfeldtYeah, I do a lot of those with founders.

Lee MinkoffI know, Bruce, you're one of the most well thought out on this. It's so interesting for me to see what you and other founders think. I think I get that, and that's how we differentiate in a way. We think we understand the sensitivities, and we're good partners and good people. That's a huge part of our differentiation.

There are lots of things on the business side they need to do going into the process: getting their team on board, figuring out who's going to be in the room, table stakes stuff, getting your data together, getting your systems to tie, being prepared for due diligence, being prepared to answer lots and lots of questions, probably over and over again, and not getting frustrated, because we're just doing our job. That's how due diligence works. Getting the accounting in place. There are a lot of things to do. But we're talking more about mentally preparing for a sale. I think a lot more goes into it than just getting the business ready. It's really about getting the founder's mindset ready.

Bruce EckfeldtIn terms of the experience you've had and the founders you've worked with, where have they missed some of this stuff? Where have you seen founders struggle, either during the sale process, during due diligence, or post-transaction, where they hadn't anticipated something or hadn't realized how it was going to land, or where they struggled with those changes?

Lee MinkoffWe do our best to align with the founder pre-close on what they want to do post-close. We do our best. We spend lots of time. We ask the questions over and over. We're vetting their sincerity about what they want to do. But at the same time, they're humans, we're humans. We don't know what the other side of a deal is going to look like. No one can see the future. So sometimes they think they're going to feel a certain way, and in reality they feel differently.

One thing I've seen is where a founder is really eager to get a deal done, and we've aligned, or we think we've aligned. We've put this post-closing professional life plan in front of them, they've agreed to it, and then post-close, they're no longer a founder or an owner. They're an employee. That can be tough. Fortunately, for us, that has really only happened one or two times.

A lot of the other times it's, "I'm happy to be an employee, but I actually want to step back and be a delivery person or a salesperson," or someone who gets into a different piece of the organization because they're intellectually curious. Those are the best outcomes.

And then sometimes people get the check and they weren't thinking about money the way they now think about it. Now they've got the money, and they're like, "You know what? Life is short. I don't want to work. I want to do other things in my life." That happens, and that's okay. Ideally we would have seen it before it happens, but sometimes it happens. It's human. You can't judge people for it. At the end of the day, I want people to do what they want to do. I hope they would want me to do what I want to do. So I try to take it for what it is and not force people into doing things they don't want to do.

Bruce EckfeldtIt's a tough process. I went through it personally, where I was so focused on trying to get the deal done, for all sorts of reasons. It wasn't until I finished the deal and was on the other side that I was like, "Wait, I don't know if I actually want to be in this situation anymore." I work with all these founders to help them think through that and project into the future and what's really going to happen. But it's tough. Getting to the other side can be a bit of a challenge, and it's eye-opening.

Tell me a little about where you've seen good deals that didn't work because the company wasn't prepared, or they didn't have their ducks in a row, or things just weren't organized well enough. The fundamentals may have been there, and it could have been a good deal, but you couldn't get to evaluating it, or you couldn't get over the finish line because of a lack of preparation, not necessarily a lack of fundamentals.

Lee MinkoffI think this will answer your question. If it doesn't, let me know. Sometimes companies are expecting a platform multiple. Bankers have pitched a platform multiple, and they're applying it to an EBITDA that is not a platform EBITDA. They don't have a CFO. They don't have a head of HR. The founder does everything, and the founder wants to transition or is going to step back after the deal.

So oftentimes there's a valuation disconnect with founder-owned companies, because founders, when they own the majority of the company, are naturally going to play a lot of roles and give more discretionary effort than they would after they've sold the company to us, when they're probably a minority owner or in some sort of deferred consideration period. I think that has probably blocked us from doing deals where it was a good company, we wanted to do the deal, and we just couldn't get there on valuation, because we viewed it as missing infrastructure costs and operational costs that we'd have to bear, and the price just didn't work for us.

Price is important in private equity. I think we pay market prices for the companies we invest in, but we're certainly not paying revenue multiples. We're paying good, solid EBITDA multiples. Sometimes you just don't get there on price, and that's okay. I also don't want to buy a company where the founder feels like they've been shorted and isn't satisfied with the price, because there's a good chance they hold that back, deep in there.

I want our counterparties to be pleased with the price we're paying. Even if we could do the deal at the price, if the founder doesn't like it, I don't actually want to do the deal. So I think that would be the most common thing we've run into that blocks a good deal.

Bruce EckfeldtThat's great. I want to cover the broader market a little bit. We're in interesting times. We've got political things going on. We've got tariff things going on. We have interest rates that are changing. We've got global conflict. What's your view of the market over the next couple of years when it comes to M&A transactions in this lower market? Are you bullish? Are there certain areas you see doing better than others? What are the factors you think need to play out?

Lee MinkoffI'm going to give you a cop-out answer. I would say I'm neutral plus, a term one of our CEOs instilled in me, and I've been saying it all the time now. I have been saying for years that we're going to experience a downturn. At some point, things need to stop going up. That's not how economies work. Economies are cyclical in nature. You have inflation, you have rates, you have tariffs, you have macro events that cause political or geopolitical uncertainty.

So I think we've been in this craze for a while. I think the AI boom has driven a lot of appreciation in equity markets. It's been a select number of companies that have experienced it, but AI certainly propped up the markets, and we had this crazy experience in 2025. So at some point, I think the broader macro economy will turn. Do I think we're going to have a 2008? No, I don't think so. I hope not. Hopefully the economy is in a much smarter place, so we're not going to have a 2008. But I think we will experience some softness in the next three years.

For us, when you talk about the market, I'm going to go back to where we invest. I think even our competitors that we run into at this end of the market are generally investing in smaller, more insulated, recession-resilient types of companies. I think about technology spending, healthcare spending, education, and for me, legal, accounting, wealth management. These aren't things that go away in a recession.

More broadly, I think we will see some volatility in the markets in the next three years, but I get excited about that. I think there's opportunity for investors across all different asset classes and strategies to find money in these scenarios. It's sort of hard, in some ways, when everything is just going up and to the right for public market investors, where a lot of the capital of institutional allocators sits. I feel like that will cascade down to us in the lower market, and there'll be lots of opportunities whenever we hit the market uncertainty we've all been waiting on.

Bruce EckfeldtI think we're going to hit time here. Lee, I appreciate this. If people want more information on you, the work you do, and the firm, what's the best way to get that?

Lee Minkoffrenovuscapital.com. My email is lee.minkoff@renovuscapital.com if you want to reach me. Follow us on LinkedIn. We put out a bunch of posts about our companies and our events, and I'm always happy to chat and network and have a conversation. Bruce, I appreciate you having me on. It's been fun over the years, you and I getting to chat about this stuff, and to be on the podcast, I really appreciate it.

Bruce EckfeldtIt's been a pleasure, and I'll make sure all the information is in the show notes so people can get it. Thank you for taking the time.

Lee MinkoffThanks.